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	<title>Comments on: Do I Have to Go to Church?</title>
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	<description>We're not in Christendom anymore, Toto!</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:20:15 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-1/#comment-264</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 22:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A response to Sterling. I&#039;m in a similar situation, so I sympathise totally: quitting the established church not because I&#039;ve lost my faith but because my faith has outgrown an inadequate church. Yes, I too feel guilt. I ask myself if I&#039;m just being a &quot;spiritual tourist&quot;, looking for the right emotional experience; or whether I&#039;m just letting my natural dislike of authority get the better of me. However, I have come to trust my instincts about church life and have resigned myself to going it alone. It has been a great release - not into egotistical &quot;just you and me, Jesus&quot; christianity but a deepening of faith. The meaningless rituals of church have been cleared away and I read the bible more regularly and with fresh understanding. I don&#039;t rule out rejoining a church in the future - I still have great respect for some of them (the Orthodox church, for example) but I&#039;m using this time as a chance to deepen my faith and really LIVE the life Jesus ordained for us rather than just doing my Sunday God shift, talking and arguing about and showboating. Anyway, I&#039;m not sure if all the above makes sense to you, but please believe me, my thoughts are with you in your situation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A response to Sterling. I&#8217;m in a similar situation, so I sympathise totally: quitting the established church not because I&#8217;ve lost my faith but because my faith has outgrown an inadequate church. Yes, I too feel guilt. I ask myself if I&#8217;m just being a &#8220;spiritual tourist&#8221;, looking for the right emotional experience; or whether I&#8217;m just letting my natural dislike of authority get the better of me. However, I have come to trust my instincts about church life and have resigned myself to going it alone. It has been a great release &#8211; not into egotistical &#8220;just you and me, Jesus&#8221; christianity but a deepening of faith. The meaningless rituals of church have been cleared away and I read the bible more regularly and with fresh understanding. I don&#8217;t rule out rejoining a church in the future &#8211; I still have great respect for some of them (the Orthodox church, for example) but I&#8217;m using this time as a chance to deepen my faith and really LIVE the life Jesus ordained for us rather than just doing my Sunday God shift, talking and arguing about and showboating. Anyway, I&#8217;m not sure if all the above makes sense to you, but please believe me, my thoughts are with you in your situation!</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-1/#comment-263</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 22:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-263</guid>
		<description>Great reply, Frank. Couldn&#039;t have put it better myself. I sit in a church full of rituals and people social networking and feel nothing. I sit and read the morning service and Book of Common prayer to myself, read the bible, pray in my downstairs toilet and most of all, try and live (however failingly) the life Jesus set down for us and feel that I&#039;m close to God. If that means I&#039;m going to hell, then so be it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great reply, Frank. Couldn&#8217;t have put it better myself. I sit in a church full of rituals and people social networking and feel nothing. I sit and read the morning service and Book of Common prayer to myself, read the bible, pray in my downstairs toilet and most of all, try and live (however failingly) the life Jesus set down for us and feel that I&#8217;m close to God. If that means I&#8217;m going to hell, then so be it!</p>
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		<title>By: Sterling V. Roulstin</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-1/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>Sterling V. Roulstin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 18:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-232</guid>
		<description>It seems we all have read enough of these posts to reasonably conclude that organized religion and Christian Church culture has become something other than what we were taught they were supposed to be.  I just left my church and am, in a way, scared to death for myself spiritually for having done so.  There is underlying guilt and a feeling of not belonging anymore, and the temptation to return and feel more secure again.  I&#039;m sure I let lots of people down, disappointed them, and caused them to doubt/reject my faith like I&#039;m some sort of hypocrite or apostate.  Nothing could be further from the truth, but I&#039;m sure it&#039;s the default response of many who attend where I did.  I always wonder if there might just be a &quot;right&quot; church for me, which I simply haven&#039;t found yet.

  Nobody talks about the money anymore that gets flaunted around in churches, and how financial irresponsibility is so quickly referred to as &quot;trusting in the Lord&#039;s blessing.&quot;  I also wish more people talked in detail about the little guilt trips church people lay on each other about missing services...you know...the &quot;We&#039;ll be praying for you&quot; routine, and the &quot;We missed you&quot; response which almost always comes across as an &quot;I was there and you should have been&quot; attitude.  It&#039;s so easy to judge the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus&#039; day for their overemphasis on custom, tradition, rules, and expectations, the superficial emptiness thereof, and the elitist and self-righteous attitudes which accompanied their routines.   Somehow, we seem to miss the part about how organized religion as we know it basically functions in like manner right down to the holier than thou attitudes, simply replacing old rituals with new ones.

  I cannot reconcile my mind, heart, and spirit with these practices any more, and I know it.  It&#039;s just very difficult for me right now to &quot;detox&quot; and not feel bad about the category I&#039;ll inevitably be placed in by those with whom I once fellowshipped.  It hurts that we have to be seen as playing the game to have that unconditional acceptance of like-minded believers.  It shouldn&#039;t be that way, but it most certainly is that way, although I&#039;m sure the people of whom I speak would vehemently deny it and claim it&#039;s just Satan talking and me sadly listening.

  I don&#039;t believe Satan is doing the talking.  I think I&#039;m just trying to be real and have a relationship with God that is more genuine and less pretentious.  I know what the bible teaches and I don&#039;t see organized religion in congruence with it.  Rather, I see the bible-thumping as a mask for controlling and cloning people under the illusion of living for the Lord.  We have the answers in the church organization, and no one else knows it with the clarity that we know it.  If you don&#039;t play our game by our rules, you aren&#039;t real believers like we are.  Sounds like the Scribes and Pharisees to me!  We have the truth and the &quot;real&quot; connection to God, his word, and the spiritual truths of life, and we prove it by what we do and how pervasively we do it.  Let&#039;s pray for all those others in the world, who unlike us, just don&#039;t get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems we all have read enough of these posts to reasonably conclude that organized religion and Christian Church culture has become something other than what we were taught they were supposed to be.  I just left my church and am, in a way, scared to death for myself spiritually for having done so.  There is underlying guilt and a feeling of not belonging anymore, and the temptation to return and feel more secure again.  I&#8217;m sure I let lots of people down, disappointed them, and caused them to doubt/reject my faith like I&#8217;m some sort of hypocrite or apostate.  Nothing could be further from the truth, but I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s the default response of many who attend where I did.  I always wonder if there might just be a &#8220;right&#8221; church for me, which I simply haven&#8217;t found yet.</p>
<p>  Nobody talks about the money anymore that gets flaunted around in churches, and how financial irresponsibility is so quickly referred to as &#8220;trusting in the Lord&#8217;s blessing.&#8221;  I also wish more people talked in detail about the little guilt trips church people lay on each other about missing services&#8230;you know&#8230;the &#8220;We&#8217;ll be praying for you&#8221; routine, and the &#8220;We missed you&#8221; response which almost always comes across as an &#8220;I was there and you should have been&#8221; attitude.  It&#8217;s so easy to judge the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus&#8217; day for their overemphasis on custom, tradition, rules, and expectations, the superficial emptiness thereof, and the elitist and self-righteous attitudes which accompanied their routines.   Somehow, we seem to miss the part about how organized religion as we know it basically functions in like manner right down to the holier than thou attitudes, simply replacing old rituals with new ones.</p>
<p>  I cannot reconcile my mind, heart, and spirit with these practices any more, and I know it.  It&#8217;s just very difficult for me right now to &#8220;detox&#8221; and not feel bad about the category I&#8217;ll inevitably be placed in by those with whom I once fellowshipped.  It hurts that we have to be seen as playing the game to have that unconditional acceptance of like-minded believers.  It shouldn&#8217;t be that way, but it most certainly is that way, although I&#8217;m sure the people of whom I speak would vehemently deny it and claim it&#8217;s just Satan talking and me sadly listening.</p>
<p>  I don&#8217;t believe Satan is doing the talking.  I think I&#8217;m just trying to be real and have a relationship with God that is more genuine and less pretentious.  I know what the bible teaches and I don&#8217;t see organized religion in congruence with it.  Rather, I see the bible-thumping as a mask for controlling and cloning people under the illusion of living for the Lord.  We have the answers in the church organization, and no one else knows it with the clarity that we know it.  If you don&#8217;t play our game by our rules, you aren&#8217;t real believers like we are.  Sounds like the Scribes and Pharisees to me!  We have the truth and the &#8220;real&#8221; connection to God, his word, and the spiritual truths of life, and we prove it by what we do and how pervasively we do it.  Let&#8217;s pray for all those others in the world, who unlike us, just don&#8217;t get it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Shelley</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-1/#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Shelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-172</guid>
		<description>Maggie said, &quot;...One of my neighbors keeps inviting me, saying that God shows up nearly every week at their church...&quot; 
I have learned something about this concept:
-The following exposition is my understanding of the truth based on my own experiences with traditional and modernized organized Christianity:
One of the properties of music in general is that when people listen to music they like, it released happy-chemicals in our brains to give us a natural high. One of the main reasons that Christians go to one congregation&#039;s services rather than another&#039;s is that the music is to their liking, which facilitates the natural high. On any given Sunday morning, when the mysic is particularly good and it gets the congregation &quot;in the mood,&quot; the speaker goes up to the pulpit and says, &quot;Can you FEEL God&#039;s presence in this place this morning?&quot; (You&#039;ll have to bare with me and imagine a sweaty preacher saying this with all of the energy and charisma he can muster). 
In effect: When the music is particularly good and gets people in the mood, churchgoers equivocate that to God being present. (Notice that you&#039;ll pretty much never hear preachers say that if the music wasn&#039;t all that great). 

I assert that God&#039;s presence in a congregation is not dependent on the quality of duration of the music. Rather, Christ himself said, &quot;Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am with you.&quot; Or something very close to that. (Notice that Christ never says, &quot;And you BETTER be playing Solid Rock right before the sermon.&quot;) 

A NOTE: the Christ said, &quot;In my name&quot; within that verse (I can&#039;t remember where it is). Anyway, I believe that the phrase &quot;in my name&quot; is often misunderstood and misapplied by modern Western mainstream Christians. Christians are taught to say it at the end of prayers like it is some incantation that will magically coerce God into listening to the prayer. But I believe that the phrase has a much deeper meaning.
In the Hebrew language (a dialect of which Jesus spoke), a person&#039;s &quot;name&quot; was not what that person was called, or even just their seal of authority (as I&#039;m sure many church leaders are taught, since that is a small part of it); rather, it meant something like, &quot;in the way that [that person] would have done it&quot; or &quot;to follow [that person&#039;s] ways.&quot; 
so what does this all mean?
That the fad of wearing WWJD bracelets might not have been so dogmatic of an idea, after all. When Jesus said, &quot;In my name,&quot; I assert (and here, at least I truly believe that i am not twisting up the Christ&#039;s words) that he meant &quot;to follow my ways&quot; or &quot;for my purposes&quot; or something very much to that affect. 

APPLY: 
How does that definition change your perception of how to pray?

RESPONSE TO THE COMMENTS:
I must say that I really like Frank&#039;s comment. I think that that adequately describes the IC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maggie said, &#8220;&#8230;One of my neighbors keeps inviting me, saying that God shows up nearly every week at their church&#8230;&#8221;<br />
I have learned something about this concept:<br />
-The following exposition is my understanding of the truth based on my own experiences with traditional and modernized organized Christianity:<br />
One of the properties of music in general is that when people listen to music they like, it released happy-chemicals in our brains to give us a natural high. One of the main reasons that Christians go to one congregation&#8217;s services rather than another&#8217;s is that the music is to their liking, which facilitates the natural high. On any given Sunday morning, when the mysic is particularly good and it gets the congregation &#8220;in the mood,&#8221; the speaker goes up to the pulpit and says, &#8220;Can you FEEL God&#8217;s presence in this place this morning?&#8221; (You&#8217;ll have to bare with me and imagine a sweaty preacher saying this with all of the energy and charisma he can muster).<br />
In effect: When the music is particularly good and gets people in the mood, churchgoers equivocate that to God being present. (Notice that you&#8217;ll pretty much never hear preachers say that if the music wasn&#8217;t all that great). </p>
<p>I assert that God&#8217;s presence in a congregation is not dependent on the quality of duration of the music. Rather, Christ himself said, &#8220;Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am with you.&#8221; Or something very close to that. (Notice that Christ never says, &#8220;And you BETTER be playing Solid Rock right before the sermon.&#8221;) </p>
<p>A NOTE: the Christ said, &#8220;In my name&#8221; within that verse (I can&#8217;t remember where it is). Anyway, I believe that the phrase &#8220;in my name&#8221; is often misunderstood and misapplied by modern Western mainstream Christians. Christians are taught to say it at the end of prayers like it is some incantation that will magically coerce God into listening to the prayer. But I believe that the phrase has a much deeper meaning.<br />
In the Hebrew language (a dialect of which Jesus spoke), a person&#8217;s &#8220;name&#8221; was not what that person was called, or even just their seal of authority (as I&#8217;m sure many church leaders are taught, since that is a small part of it); rather, it meant something like, &#8220;in the way that [that person] would have done it&#8221; or &#8220;to follow [that person's] ways.&#8221;<br />
so what does this all mean?<br />
That the fad of wearing WWJD bracelets might not have been so dogmatic of an idea, after all. When Jesus said, &#8220;In my name,&#8221; I assert (and here, at least I truly believe that i am not twisting up the Christ&#8217;s words) that he meant &#8220;to follow my ways&#8221; or &#8220;for my purposes&#8221; or something very much to that affect. </p>
<p>APPLY:<br />
How does that definition change your perception of how to pray?</p>
<p>RESPONSE TO THE COMMENTS:<br />
I must say that I really like Frank&#8217;s comment. I think that that adequately describes the IC.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-1/#comment-160</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-160</guid>
		<description>If I keep going to Macdonalds does it make me a hamburger? (Even a real Hamburger)

NO

IT DOESN&#039;T

I DON&#039;T at least not in that sense.

I find the biggest problem is that whether in or out of church, believers do not know how to be a believer! Even when they jump ship, they often try to replicate the sort of relationship they had when still on board.

Christianity in the institutional church is a servicing process. There are certain activities which must be covered in the schedule, all of which apparently refuel Christians for the coming terrors of the week. Without this they are liable to conk out along the journey.

In over thirtyfive years since coming to the Lord I have seen very little in church which introduces a believer to the personal walk that Jesus may want with them, and them alone, for who they are alone. Only when a believer knows who he actually is, in God, and can hear God, can he properly function as a member of the Body.

The purpose of the church is to make clones, not believers. When I decided to explore Jesus in my personal and business life, as a young Christian, I found that He was massively bigger and massively more involved than I ever saw in church. Unfortunately the fleshly hatred for someone who is not playing &quot;their&quot; game got the better of them too many times and I got thrown out. Several times. Several places. 

I can do without that sort of fellowship, the sort that imprisons or forbids any depth that they can&#039;t control. My wife and I now fellowship with a motley crew of 6-8 dissidents, who likewise have escaped captivity. We all seek relationship with God on a deeper level, something which has only happened once out of the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I keep going to Macdonalds does it make me a hamburger? (Even a real Hamburger)</p>
<p>NO</p>
<p>IT DOESN&#8217;T</p>
<p>I DON&#8217;T at least not in that sense.</p>
<p>I find the biggest problem is that whether in or out of church, believers do not know how to be a believer! Even when they jump ship, they often try to replicate the sort of relationship they had when still on board.</p>
<p>Christianity in the institutional church is a servicing process. There are certain activities which must be covered in the schedule, all of which apparently refuel Christians for the coming terrors of the week. Without this they are liable to conk out along the journey.</p>
<p>In over thirtyfive years since coming to the Lord I have seen very little in church which introduces a believer to the personal walk that Jesus may want with them, and them alone, for who they are alone. Only when a believer knows who he actually is, in God, and can hear God, can he properly function as a member of the Body.</p>
<p>The purpose of the church is to make clones, not believers. When I decided to explore Jesus in my personal and business life, as a young Christian, I found that He was massively bigger and massively more involved than I ever saw in church. Unfortunately the fleshly hatred for someone who is not playing &#8220;their&#8221; game got the better of them too many times and I got thrown out. Several times. Several places. </p>
<p>I can do without that sort of fellowship, the sort that imprisons or forbids any depth that they can&#8217;t control. My wife and I now fellowship with a motley crew of 6-8 dissidents, who likewise have escaped captivity. We all seek relationship with God on a deeper level, something which has only happened once out of the system.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle67</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-1/#comment-158</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle67</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-158</guid>
		<description>The true church is New Jerusalem above which is the mother of us all. (Galatians 4:26) Paul describes us as the branches engrafted into the olive tree in Romans 11 and it is only by faith that you can abide there. Attending a local church does not make you a member of that body. It is only by faith that you can be a part.

There are members of the local churches that do not abide in the true body just like there are members who do. There are also people that do not attend church that are closer to God(and real Christians) than some of the people who attend church. The body can not be contained in four walls made by human hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The true church is New Jerusalem above which is the mother of us all. (Galatians 4:26) Paul describes us as the branches engrafted into the olive tree in Romans 11 and it is only by faith that you can abide there. Attending a local church does not make you a member of that body. It is only by faith that you can be a part.</p>
<p>There are members of the local churches that do not abide in the true body just like there are members who do. There are also people that do not attend church that are closer to God(and real Christians) than some of the people who attend church. The body can not be contained in four walls made by human hands.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-1/#comment-147</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-147</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a great analogy churchless and it does make absolute sense. I&#039;ve given it some thought in the past and concluded it would not be wise for anyone following Jesus to presume to know what the Holy Spirit is thinking as He leads someone else.

Consequently, if I judge the HS would never lead another person into the IC would be for me to assume they could not possibly find Jesus &quot;in church,&quot; so to speak. I also know some Christians in congregations who love and follow Him.  But we both know institutional settings do not work for all of us.  As a &quot;free range&quot; believer, that leaves me with what Jesus taught His followers...to treat others as we would have them treat us.

     Many non-believers complain often about Christians always judging each other in their own religion and others.  Many find it not only irritating, but a joke for a people who are supposed to love one another.  Paul wrote &quot;love thinks no evil&quot;...meaning that love always thinks the best of others and their intentions.  I believe God will grant us a discerning heart and eyes to see if we ask for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a great analogy churchless and it does make absolute sense. I&#8217;ve given it some thought in the past and concluded it would not be wise for anyone following Jesus to presume to know what the Holy Spirit is thinking as He leads someone else.</p>
<p>Consequently, if I judge the HS would never lead another person into the IC would be for me to assume they could not possibly find Jesus &#8220;in church,&#8221; so to speak. I also know some Christians in congregations who love and follow Him.  But we both know institutional settings do not work for all of us.  As a &#8220;free range&#8221; believer, that leaves me with what Jesus taught His followers&#8230;to treat others as we would have them treat us.</p>
<p>     Many non-believers complain often about Christians always judging each other in their own religion and others.  Many find it not only irritating, but a joke for a people who are supposed to love one another.  Paul wrote &#8220;love thinks no evil&#8221;&#8230;meaning that love always thinks the best of others and their intentions.  I believe God will grant us a discerning heart and eyes to see if we ask for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-1/#comment-146</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 12:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-146</guid>
		<description>Just passing by. Btw, your website have great content!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just passing by. Btw, your website have great content!</p>
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		<title>By: churchless</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-/#comment-145</link>
		<dc:creator>churchless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-145</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Sarah! Your response sounds a lot like Wayne Jacobsen&#039;s memorable quote: &quot;The church is not something we build, it is simply a way of living alongside each other that makes Jesus known.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Sarah! Your response sounds a lot like Wayne Jacobsen&#8217;s memorable quote: &#8220;The church is not something we build, it is simply a way of living alongside each other that makes Jesus known.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: churchless</title>
		<link>http://churchless.net/2009/02/do-i-have-to-go-to-church/comment-page-/#comment-144</link>
		<dc:creator>churchless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postcongregational.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-144</guid>
		<description>Richard, that&#039;s a great point, defining our terms! I&#039;ve been thinking we should drop the usage of the word &quot;church&quot; from our current vocabulary, since everyone misuses it: it&#039;s a building, a non-profit corporation, a denomination, or even a meeting. To me, it simply means those who make up the body of Christ, wherever they happen to be, in multiples of one or thousands living out the gospel in a large metro area. Having &quot;four walls&quot; does not necessarily make it a church, so I like your advice &quot;tell her to hook up with other believers.&quot; Cool!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, that&#8217;s a great point, defining our terms! I&#8217;ve been thinking we should drop the usage of the word &#8220;church&#8221; from our current vocabulary, since everyone misuses it: it&#8217;s a building, a non-profit corporation, a denomination, or even a meeting. To me, it simply means those who make up the body of Christ, wherever they happen to be, in multiples of one or thousands living out the gospel in a large metro area. Having &#8220;four walls&#8221; does not necessarily make it a church, so I like your advice &#8220;tell her to hook up with other believers.&#8221; Cool!</p>
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